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View Full Version : No F3 or Endurance Racing at 2012 Worlds



broad5186
31-May-11, 08:51 AM
check out bulletin 27 http://www.worldhovercraftfederation.org/ Germany's bid to host 2012 Worlds accepted - but....

No F3 or Endurance Racing and the host nation would also prefer not to run F35 and have suggested F35 drivers consider a way to enter F50 instead ????? - outrageous !

i am pleased the President and Secretary believe the world championships should, within reason, be as inclusive as possible and include F3 - i believe it is within reason that if enough register for a formula it should happen and this should be the case for all worlds in the future

my suggestion - all F3's enter F2 (and we'll beat many of them based on Towcester laptimes) and F35's declare themselves 36 Hp decide to enter F1 instead on engine capacity

as a club i think we need to consider how we address this, now and in the future

comments please

Paul Fitz
31-May-11, 06:48 PM
my suggestion - all F3's enter F2...snip....comments please

Unfortunately the world rules define F2 as "over F3.... and under 600cc 2-stroke". I think they will enforce this to prevent UK participants from making a mockery of F2. You would have more chance of F3 drivers lying about their age and competing in Juniors. ;o)

I have not seen any feedback from the consultative document distributed in January. Especially regarding the rule ' one craft-same driver limited to one Formula'. If this rule is applied in 2012, I would have thought the Formula S grid would be small enough to make room for a few F3's.

Paul Fitz

broad5186
31-May-11, 06:54 PM
we'll rebore a set of barrels and stick some 1mm oversize pistons in that'll do the trick

broad5186
31-May-11, 07:57 PM
my main beef really is that F3 is considered a 'slow' formula and not exciting for the big sponsors they have lined up

if you look at laptimes from towcester -

F3's were faster than F50, F3 would have been 3rd fastest in FS and 4th fastest in F2

and if you've watched the F3 racing this season it speaks for itself

leakey5562
31-May-11, 09:25 PM
There must be an appeal process, how can an active formula in the worlds best hovercraft racing series be left out!

drew1712
31-May-11, 11:36 PM
my main beef really is that F3 is considered a 'slow' formula and not exciting for the big sponsors they have lined up

if you look at laptimes from towcester -

F3's were faster than F50, F3 would have been 3rd fastest in FS and 4th fastest in F2

and if you've watched the F3 racing this season it speaks for itself

Boycott the event and then see what their sponsors have to say.

Brian G. Reynolds
1-Jun-11, 07:46 AM
I enjoyed watching the F3 at Rother, arguably the most exciting formula!

B.

smallw1449
1-Jun-11, 08:19 AM
Could it also be there are no German F3 drivers who could win a trophy for their country??

loopy
1-Jun-11, 10:53 AM
Actually, the only F3 driver outside the UK is GERMAN...........

F3 has so far been the biggest UK formula in 2011 (more than double the F2 field in fact). All formulae under go peaks and troughs in popularity. Unfortunately the stance taken by the majority of WHC delegates does not allow for this and is incredibly short sighted.

broad5186
1-Jun-11, 10:53 AM
good point Keith and the Germans have actually fielded a F3 driver at every championships i've been to since Berlin 2004 - maybe not the fastest chap out there and getting on in years but a good cometitor non the less

i think my daughter stuffing him into some catch netting at Towcester didn't do much for anglo-euro relationships

leakey5562
2-Jun-11, 05:27 AM
Tony, That is the North West spirit in your off spring!

turnbu3656
4-Jun-11, 02:27 PM
If F3 is not being run at the Salburg event, does that mean per the WHF rules that F3s can enter F2? or would they be excluded due to the F3 spec lower limit. Thus only the single duct / engine craft be allowed to enter Fs?
Alternative approach as tony has suggested is declair all our F3s oversize >250cc and register for F2 anyway.
Interesting suggestion from Nikki, how about we (HCGB) offer to run the F3 aspect of the 2012 worlds (and possibly endurance racing if there is enough interest) at a suitable race meeting in the UK and extend the invite to all WHF registered countries.

regards
Dan

rhodes5577
4-Jun-11, 07:29 PM
noting the above comments;

i don't think boycotting the event would be constructive - one could foresee retaliatory boycotting of a future UK event
oversizing - will at least permit one to enter -but with little prospect of a podium finish

there has to be a tactic of mediation with those opposed to F3 to establish why they are resistant to this formula which they can't win, yet are ok with other formulas which they can't win either LOL!

Winst
5-Jun-11, 06:15 AM
there has to be a tactic of mediation with those opposed to F3 to establish why they are resistant to this formula which they can't win, yet are ok with other formulas which they can't win either LOL!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Scuba Kev
5-Jun-11, 08:04 AM
I expect to get shot down here and this is not my idea but I do agree with it!!!

What if we "the HCGB" made an effort to put on a European round... we have enough bankholiday weekends to fit one in, the British nationals could be run at the same time!!!! it's been done before. If needed drop the open races for the "2day european" and re-introduce them on the 3rd day i.e the bank holiday, we have the best core of administrative, marshal, lapscoring teams so why not?

If we did this perhaps our Europeans cousins would get to see the passion of the F3 drivers and the fact it is one of the best attended, close racing and speed, how about embracing them and getting them onside for maybe future WHC votes instead of alienating them??? they may even start to race F3 again if there was an annual Briish round of European as they would have someone to race against....

Give them an option and lay down the challenge!!!

just my thoughts

Kev

Keith Oakley
5-Jun-11, 08:08 AM
From Prudhomat -
Driver briefing going on now - Klaus Bonninghausen promoting Worlds. Electricity board have promised not to drain the lake the night before. Event late in year because only time can get site - used for pop concert earlier in year. No F3 cos not World Formula.. Have to do F35 reluctantly... Because schooltime Juniors only at weekend so they can fly in fri/home sun night! (but no nearby airfield and if dad can't use his F3 not sure why he'd bring it just for junior) No endurance because big lake take too long towing back. Klaus is the guy you need to talk to.
Bye the way theres at least 2 German F3 - the guy thats been doing it for years and a new guy currently in novices who has a 4 stroke 498cc motor bike engine.
My view is that its likely to be a very small worlds -without Endurance the Australians and possibly US/Canada won't come; plus few juniors and no F3. It'll be around 60 craft not the 110 we had
Keith Oakley

Scuba Kev
5-Jun-11, 08:14 AM
From Prudhomat -
My view is that its likely to be a very small worlds -without Endurance the Australians and possibly US/Canada won't come; plus few juniors and no F3. It'll be around 60 craft not the 110 we had
Keith Oakley

That'll be a European then!!!! and NOT a World Championship!

coles2196/01
5-Jun-11, 08:52 AM
That'll be a European then!!!! and NOT a World Championship!


LIKE! ;)

What we need is proportional representation when these matters are being voted on!

Or another bid!

If the Americans/Australians invited all the formulae over - would anyone be interested?

Jon Pert
5-Jun-11, 09:08 AM
Okay, lets all take a breath.

Remember I support the re-introduction onto the Worlds but I do have one question.

The WHF removed F3 as a World formula for the 2010 Worlds onwards. We were running the Worlds so we ran F3 in it.

I have to ask this question. Since the announcement that F3 was not going to be a World formula before the 2010 Worlds have the WHF been approached with a structured proposal for the re-introduction? Have the WHF been open to any such proposal?

If a proposal was put to the WHF and they haven't wished to discuss it or they have rejected it officially then I really don't know what else can be done and this decision would not come as a surprise.

My personal view is that the WHF should have declined the German proposal on the basis of the limitations to the formula that would be allowed to attend because of the local time constraints and the time of the year it is being held. There are many aspects of the bid that don't make this event a World event. The WHF should have declined it and deferred the Worlds for a year when a more inclusive proposal could/should have been found.

Just my view as a non-racer and at this moment in time a non-attendee of the Worlds next year. If the Worlds was a big, all inclusive, event (as it should be) then we would be attending. Shame.

Just to re-iterate, I support the inclusion of F3 as I do support the inclusion of Endurance Racing and F35. I see now they have, reluctantly, included F35.

ETA: I only posted this to see if we can get some background into the resolving of the F3 problem so that we, as a club, can see what can be done.

Winst
5-Jun-11, 09:36 AM
LIKE! ;)

What we need is proportional representation when these matters are being voted on!

Or another bid!

If the Americans/Australians invited all the formulae over - would anyone be interested?

I would if they could guarantee that there was no crocodiles or alligators in the pond/lake/river!!! :D

On a serious note.....I would attend but would need at least 2 year to save for the event as I would not fly out to Oz just for the world championships. I would make a 3 week holiday out of it and visit friends.
Same goes for America. I would stay for a holiday and probably return to Hawaii for a couple of weeks.

Or (better still)

Lets have the world Champsionships in Hawaii :cool:

As we have the biggest hover club the cost would be phenomenal to take all of our craft half way around the world. (subject to everybody being willing and able to write off the cost especially those who have juniors racing)

Keith Oakley
5-Jun-11, 01:47 PM
Theres probably an opportunity to sacrifice some paddock open time. Just coming to end of second hour+ paddock open today
Keith

broad5186
5-Jun-11, 09:45 PM
if we are to boycott the worlds in germany it shouldn't be because of F3 but for not being inclusive and at a time of the year (even if no other date is available) which is not practicable for many

lets remember that F3 is strong and alive in the UK and is arguable the best represented this year - with 50+Hp 450cc 4 stroke motocross engines now the norm in europe and america and hopefully my rotax max 250 twin will see action next year, engines are plentiful - lets continue to develop F3 as a valid formula and turn the heads of the europeans and the world

it's their loss if we don't go

tony

broad5186
6-Jun-11, 12:06 PM
by my reckoning 27 drivers at the France European including 2 British so 25 Europeans - biggest grid size 9 and no juniors

2012 will be a lonely worlds if we don't go

tony

Jon Pert
6-Jun-11, 12:08 PM
I have to ask this question. Since the announcement that F3 was not going to be a World formula before the 2010 Worlds have the WHF been approached with a structured proposal for the re-introduction? Have the WHF been open to any such proposal?

If a proposal was put to the WHF and they haven't wished to discuss it or they have rejected it officially then I really don't know what else can be done and this decision would not come as a surprise.



From my earlier post.

So has an official proposal been sent to the WHF?

broad5186
6-Jun-11, 01:17 PM
Jon - from what i can gather the WHC has voted for F3 not to be part of the Germany bid but there's always an option, it seems the decision lies with the host nation

i agree there needs to be some consistency - i believe council are addressing the issue at their next meeting

Tony

Jon Pert
6-Jun-11, 01:57 PM
Jon - from what i can gather the WHC has voted for F3 not to be part of the Germany bid but there's always an option, it seems the decision lies with the host nation

i agree there needs to be some consistency - i believe council are addressing the issue at their next meeting

Tony

Well that makes no sense at all.

We are a very small community, why make completely absurd decisions like it's up to the host nation to include a formula or not FFS, that would end up splitting it into even smaller factions?

The HCGB need to put together a measured and well structured proposal to the WHF regarding this matter, not just F3 but also F35 as it only just scraped in much to the hosts dismay so I believe. Endurance racing should also be there IMHO.

Shame.

The Dragon
6-Jun-11, 02:21 PM
From my limited understanding it is not the WHC that make these decisions, all member countries are asked to vote on the proposals put forward to the WHC. I can't see the WHC over-riding a decision that has been voted on.
One bit that muddies the water is that some of the countries that have a single vote have never held any event, let alone a WHC event. If several of the nil event countries are lobbied by those that want to vote for - lets say - no F3, this will increase the voting power of the country making that proposal. Its like politics - can get very tactical!
The more 'active' countries I believe get 2 votes.
WHC will do their best to try to mediate and do what they can to continue to include everyone's needs but if the votes go against that, I'm not sure what else they can do.
I guess like all things, some countries only want what benefits them, rather than what benefits everyone.
Its a difficult and sad time for our World's Events. I'm sure Council will do their best to try to improve this situation.

Winst
6-Jun-11, 04:26 PM
2012 will be a lonely worlds

tony

Whilst I was in Germany, 3 weeks ago, I explained to our friends that the worlds were being held in Saalburg. So they got thier maps out and they found that it is only 130km (80 miles) from where they live.
I explained that we had 100+ craft at the worlds last year and they have decided to come along next year and cheer me on.

I hope it's not a big let down for the spectators as well as the drivers.

Fingers crossed they can sort this out sooner rather than later :confused:

Jon Pert
6-Jun-11, 04:46 PM
Okay so this is the rule - Rule 12.0 Point H:

F3 may be removed as a World Championship formula where it is impractical to include it in the programme. This must be agreed with the WHF prior to an event programme being published.

It's a bit woolly isn't it? All that needs to be said is that there are time constraints so it has to be not run and that's that. Who's to know?

Why not suggest combining F3 and F35 as it is at the moment in the UK. They are having to run F35 so it would not add any time to the program. If it is a big lake as they say then there will be plenty of room for both formulas. We have ELS so lap scoring should be okay.

Just a thought, not ideal but a solution?

loopy
7-Jun-11, 07:31 AM
From so some feedback that Conrad came back with from the EHF event in France, it is felt that we "can't be bothered" to support the EHF events, so why should the EHF countries support us. To a point, I can see what they mean, but if they had full and active racing series in their countries, I am sure they wouldn't need to, or be able to afford to attend the EHF series either. It's a catch 22 that I just can't see a way out of.

Jon, your suggestion may be a good one, and we can keep nagging, but as far as the hosts are concerned, the decision has been made!

On a personal note, I am really really frustrated that I have just realised that they have stolen my 40th birthday weekend, I had been planning a huge party, especially with my birthday actually on the weekend for a change, and instead I may well be sat at home billy-no-mates with a daughter who has just started big school. NOT A HAPPY BUNNY!

Jon Pert
7-Jun-11, 07:56 AM
From so some feedback that Conrad came back with from the EHF event in France, it is felt that we "can't be bothered" to support the EHF events, so why should the EHF countries support us. To a point, I can see what they mean, but if they had full and active racing series in their countries, I am sure they wouldn't need to, or be able to afford to attend the EHF series either. It's a catch 22 that I just can't see a way out of.


But I am sure they would be more than happy to use the ELS and the UK marshaling team though. We're useful when it suits them!

I can't see an easy solution but when the largest race series in Europe gets bullied by the few something's not right!

Winst
7-Jun-11, 09:02 AM
but as far as the hosts are concerned, the decision has been made!

:mad:

I feel a uk race meeting coming on the weekend of the worlds.

Jon Pert
7-Jun-11, 11:22 AM
:mad:

I feel a uk race meeting coming on the weekend of the worlds.

That won't help the situation tbh.

Lets see if we can come up with a work round for the Worlds. The time of year we cannot change, lets see if we can get F3 into it within another formula by sending in a well thought out, constructive proposal.

broad5186
7-Jun-11, 11:25 AM
EHF should support us and we should support them - difficult to support them though when they'd rather F35 and F3 not be there,we know when we're not wanted

we need a robust formula structure that encompasses all and stands the test of time

tony

Jon Pert
7-Jun-11, 11:29 AM
They could say the same about us not having FS...

I've always said it and I'll say it again. To have a World Motorsport with differing rules for different countries is crazy.

Winst
7-Jun-11, 12:00 PM
Lets see if we can come up with a work round for the Worlds. The time of year we cannot change, lets see if we can get F3 into it within another formula by sending in a well thought out, constructive proposal.

I understand what you are saying but we shouldn't have to.

That's like banning Usain Bolt from the 100m in the olympics because he is faster than anybody else and making him join the marathon which he's never going to win.
Where is the fairness in that?


To have a World Motorsport with differing rules for different countries is crazy

Absolutely.

Jon Pert
7-Jun-11, 12:28 PM
I understand what you are saying but we shouldn't have to.

That's like banning Usain Bolt from the 100m in the olympics because he is faster than anybody else and making him join the marathon which he's never going to win.
Where is the fairness in that?


Agreed but since the rule was brought in regarding F3 after Sweden 2008 nothing has been sent to the WHF protesting against the decision. Remember the UK ran the Worlds in 2010 and F3 was included because we could. Germany, the host, have decided to not run it, as they are entitled to within the rules.

The problem is the rule and if no protest or proposal has been sent in since the rule was made nearly 3 years ago this situation was always going to happen.

The rule is poorly worded as I have said before, and poorly thought out in general.

Winst
7-Jun-11, 12:50 PM
nothing has been sent to the WHF protesting against the decision.

I'm baffled as to why this wasn't done as soon as it was agreed and why leave it till now?

Winst
7-Jun-11, 12:51 PM
I'm baffled as to why this wasn't done as soon as it was agreed and why leave it till now?

Explain it on Friday JP as this could go on all day.

coles2196/01
7-Jun-11, 03:22 PM
But I am sure they would be more than happy to use the ELS and the UK marshaling team though. We're useful when it suits them!

I can't see an easy solution but when the largest race series in Europe gets bullied by the few something's not right!


The problem is though for the drivers, lapscorers and maybe marshals is that it is during school term time and therefore some of us can not go anyway!

coles2196/01
7-Jun-11, 03:26 PM
From so some feedback that Conrad came back with from the EHF event in France, it is felt that we "can't be bothered" to support the EHF events, so why should the EHF countries support us. To a point, I can see what they mean, but if they had full and active racing series in their countries, I am sure they wouldn't need to, or be able to afford to attend the EHF series either. It's a catch 22 that I just can't see a way out of.

Jon, your suggestion may be a good one, and we can keep nagging, but as far as the hosts are concerned, the decision has been made!

On a personal note, I am really really frustrated that I have just realised that they have stolen my 40th birthday weekend, I had been planning a huge party, especially with my birthday actually on the weekend for a change, and instead I may well be sat at home billy-no-mates with a daughter who has just started big school. NOT A HAPPY BUNNY!

"can't be bothered" is probably because of the cost of getting to Europe in the first place - both monetarily and in time! So........... when we retire ..............!

Jon Pert
7-Jun-11, 03:34 PM
"can't be bothered" is probably because of the cost of getting to Europe in the first place - both monetarily and in time! So........... when we retire ..............!

I wouldn't say we have it any worse than some of the Europeans to be honest, the Swedish have to travel vast distances for example.

I think the difference is that we have a fairly packed calendar so can do all our racing in the UK.

The Europeans are good fun, I certainly enjoyed the few I did. Took the Friday and Monday off work and had a great time traveling in convoy etc etc.

coles2196/01
7-Jun-11, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't say we have it any worse than some of the Europeans to be honest, the Swedish have to travel vast distances for example.

I think the difference is that we have a fairly packed calendar so can do all our racing in the UK.

The Europeans are good fun, I certainly enjoyed the few I did. Took the Friday and Monday off work and had a great time traveling in convoy etc etc.

Hence going on the Raid!! A whole week of hovercraft, scenery, drink and great food - but best of all the company and comaraderie!

willa494
7-Jun-11, 05:45 PM
Just an idea, we the U.K could run the F3,FJ and endurance races, run alongside a british european.this would include all countries that would like to attend. Taking Formula Junior out of Germany would ease their programme and hopefully more Juniors from within the UK and outside would be able to attend
If unacceptable by the Worlds committee we could call it the World Cup.

yamah
12-Jun-11, 11:53 AM
i am pleased the President and Secretary believe the world championships should, within reason, be as inclusive as possible and include F3 - i believe it is within reason that if enough register for a formula it should happen and this should be the case for all worlds in the future

as a club i think we need to consider how we address this, now and in the future

comments please

I think the "if enough register for a formula it should happen" is a very valid point as otherwise members from other countries where the formula has fewer numbers will not see first hand how the formula craft can perform at a world level and how it could relate to their own involvement with hovercraft. This is especially true with F3 as it goes from a 2 stroke dominated formula with a large population in UK, to a more mixed array with more four strokes as they become more widely available. The benefit to hovercrafting generally is to display the mix to as wide a group of interested participants as possible.

This raises the issue of how early should registrations be lodged and under what grounds could the program be modified later closer to the actual competition if numbers initially are sufficient, but at a later date, diminish. Registration fees, confirmations closer to the day, partial fees, what grounds for refunds if any. Alternative venues, venue preferences if there is a choice given, lots of issues to sort and best done co-operatively to avoid any harm.

yamah

broad5186
12-Jun-11, 10:21 PM
the F3 racing this weekend was epic and worthy of any championship - we were faster than 503's this weekend and fast enough to finish 2nd in F2

it's the worlds loss if we don't race

tony

Scuba Kev
12-Jun-11, 10:51 PM
and fast enough to finish 2nd in F2

Only due to being reliable!!! If you compare my fastest laptimes at Rother to yours then there is a considerable difference. We did have a close race in the open yesterday but if mine was playing ball I'd of been long gone :D

yamah
13-Jun-11, 03:18 AM
the F3 racing this weekend was epic and worthy of any championship - we were faster than 503's this weekend and fast enough to finish 2nd in F2

it's the worlds loss if we don't race

tony

Being faster than the 503's is the perfect reason why F3 should remain with the cc limit and not go to any different regulation limits such as a thrust limit.

Two different types of competitor, one that wants to go all out using every factor possible within the cc limit and push boundaries in most other respects and another who is satisfied with a regulated capacity and carbs and exhaust and weight da da da where development on the craft is more constrained and driver input alone plays a larger part in the outcome.

The competitor type decides which formula they want to be in, F3 needs to be there to attract that type at that scale.

yamah

broad5186
13-Jun-11, 09:02 AM
i'm just looking for a common solution, it may not be perfect - 503's were faster at Rother though - same craft same drivers

i would love us to combine F3/503 for a season and see what happens, one thing is sure, it will be the most competitive and exciting racing on the programme

i just want some harmony at world level and a system that will stand permenantly now and in the future not on the whim of the host nation hinging on votes from nations we've not seen for over 6 years at any world event and havn't participated at any level

tony

foster2958
15-Jun-11, 09:48 AM
Regretfully all “official” channels have now been exhausted. There was an overwhelming vote within WHF in favour of dropping F3 for 2012 and it seems there is no appetite to have the subject resurrected. F3 is perceived by many countries around the world, and a few influential WHF Delegates, as purely a “British formula” and hence has no place in WHC’s ~ something that we fervently disagree with. This is a view shared by the WHF President, Tony Drake and our WHF representative, Chris Barlow who both argued for inclusion of F3.

Despite this, many people are still trying to get the Germans to come up with some form of compromise. Jamie Lewendon, the WHF’s Technical Director, wrote to the WHF Delegates suggesting a compromise, and it has now been forwarded direct to the German organisers with a strong request they consider it. Both the WHF President and the WHF Secretary have followed this up with them and have very recently again asked them for their response.

Council will be contacting the German organisers directly on behalf of HCGB to express our disappointment and ask them to see what compromise can be reached. Any further news will be shared with you as soon as we can.

Kevin Foster
Council Member & Competitions Committee Chairman

broad5186
15-Jun-11, 06:45 PM
so what do we do if all avenues are closed

options



F3 craft go in big numbers and enter F2 with engines just over F3 spec
UK boycott
sit at home thinking 'this really isn't fair'

other suggestions please

daly5546
15-Jun-11, 06:54 PM
Michael Rausch is the WHF rep for Germany. I have written twice so far. Other HCGB Members can also write to Michael to try and find a solution to this situation. Chris, Kevin and Tony (Drake) are all working on this. Please support them.

Council will be contacting the German organisers directly on behalf of HCGB to express our disappointment and ask them to see what compromise can be reached. Any further news will be shared with you as soon as we can.

[/QUOTE]

I sent this on Monday. No reply so far.
Dear Michael,

Please can we explore a method of including all current racing formulae so that the championship can better reflect all current racing drivers abilities and increase the attendance at the event?

Kind regards,


Chris Daly
Chairman HCGB

coles2196/01
15-Jun-11, 08:02 PM
so what do we do if all avenues are closed

options



F3 craft go in big numbers and enter F2 with engines just over F3 spec
UK boycott
sit at home thinking 'this really isn't fair'

other suggestions please

Personally I go with no 3. I feel really sorry that such an excellent formula that 3 is, is missing out.
The other reason for going for no 3 is that I HAVE to work as I am contracted for Term Time along with many other members of the club.

broad5186
15-Jun-11, 08:20 PM
just discovered that UK legal 0.75mm oversize barrels on a TZR250 measure 256.52cc which makes it a F2 by worlds regulations (below) - F2 worlds here we come

Re-bores are allowed to the following oversize:
Formula 3 256 cm3 two stroke 512 cm3 four stroke
Formula 2 Two stroke reference limit of 610 cm3
Formula 50 508 cm3.
Standard engines bored outside these limits will be classed at their measured capacity.

broad5186
15-Jun-11, 08:21 PM
just discovered that UK legal 0.75mm oversize barrels on a TZR250 measure 256.52cc which makes it a F2 by worlds regulations (below) - F2 worlds here we come

Re-bores are allowed to the following oversize:
Formula 3 256 cm3 two stroke 512 cm3 four stroke
Formula 2 Two stroke reference limit of 610 cm3
Formula 50 508 cm3.
Standard engines bored outside these limits will be classed at their measured capacity.

broad5186
15-Jun-11, 09:55 PM
and a F3 automatically qualifies for F2 in Europe rules (up to 600cc) says nothing about F3

any F3's fancy a road trip to Saalburg this September to check out the competition and course ?

tony

Winst
16-Jun-11, 07:28 AM
any F3's fancy a road trip to Saalburg this September to check out the competition and course ?

tony

I wanted to take the F2 but unfortunately I will now be in Vegas. :(

foster2958
16-Jun-11, 09:03 AM
Tony

WHF regs define Formula 2 as:

Over F3 as defined below.
Under 600 cm3 two stroke or
under 750 cc four stroke

and the definition of F3 is as we understand it in the UK, so F3 craft cannot enter F2. Single engine single duct craft can enter FS however, so many F3 would be eligible for this formula.

Clause 11.0 A d says "For a formula to qualify as a World Championship there must be at least 8 competitors at the final registration date. When less than 8 competitors in a formula arrive at the event it may be possible that 2 formulae are run concurrently (at the same time). This will be by agreement between the Organizers and the WHF"

With this as precedent we are hoping that the organisers might accept a combined race with one of the formulae with lower numbers such as F35 or FS, but both the organisers and WHF as a whole would need to agree to this. Please remember that UK has 2 votes out of a total of 36 in WHF, so we need to make friends and influence people if we are to have a chance of getting F3 re-incorporated.

Kevin

broad5186
16-Jun-11, 05:39 PM
Kevin i agree we need to look at all negotiable options but if it's all on deaf ears then what do we do

i don't want to be forced into FS i'd rather do F2

tony

Paul Fitz
16-Jun-11, 11:00 PM
....WHF regs define Formula 2 as:Over F3 ...

Kevin,
This is a huge grey area: The offending WHF Regulation is 12H which states :- "F3 may be removed as a World Championship formula where it is impractical to include it in the programme. This must be agreed with the WHF prior to an event programme being published."

This confirms that F3 *IS* a recognised WHF Formula, but allows any WHC organiser to delete the event if it is deemed "impractical" to run it. No definition of "impractical" is given. Providing that the exclusion is notified in advance, it has to be considered acceptable to disallow the formula, even if more F3 craft are available to compete than another formula e.g. FS, F35 or F2. I think this grossly unfair.

"This must be agreed with the WHF...." is the text which concerns me the most. Does this mean that all such proposals are put to the vote? We already see formula disparity within the European F50 and the British F503 Which are expected to race together despite the discrepancies between the two formula regulations. This formula was conceived in the UK as an Entry level formula using a "stock" engine. This has changed (for the worst in my opinion) and is now another "he who throws money at it can win" formula, albeit with some restriction.

The WHF appear to be taking hovercraft racing in the wrong direction. They are moving away from the "entry formulae" such as F3 and the original F503 which is guaranteed to reduce the number of new entrants. One of the principle reasons for the relatively large numbers of juniors we see in the UK is the fact that FJ and F3 can be "combined" within the family and costs reduced. It is evident that across Europe, we have seen very few Junior entrants over the last 10 years.

Looking at a parallel, "The British Superbike Championships", in which I have a personal interest, we see the front runners who appear on the TV replays, but in the background are the EVO class. They have less power and lower speeds, but they form the 'Entry class' which guarantee the continued success of the main attraction.

Perhaps this would be an appropriate time for the HCGB to lead the way and write to *ALL* of the affiliated clubs of the WHF and ask that they consider revising regulations, with the future of hovercraft racing in mind.

loopy
17-Jun-11, 08:05 AM
Paul,

very valid points, well put.

foster2958
17-Jun-11, 09:41 AM
Paul I don't disagree to any great extent with anything you've said, except to say that there is very little difference between HCGB and EHF regulations regarding F50/F503. The only difference of any substance is that EHF regs allow non-standard exhausts provided they do not boost performance. There is a difference between HCGB/EHF regulations for this formula and WHF regs which have no minimum weight restriction whereas both UK and EHF require craft and operator to have a minimum combined weight of 190kg.

Regarding the decision to omit F3, this was proposed by the German organisers and put to the vote by the WHF national delegates at a meeting earlier this year - these decisions are not made unilaterally by the organisers, all WHF nations have a say in the matter.

HCGB has a healthy national championships which is all inclusive with the widest range of formulae anywhere in the world. This allows a range of craft sharing through F3, F35 and F503 which fosters a good intake of new blood to the sport through Juniors and Novices. It is my personal opinion that the reduction of formulae at EHF events, and the lack of national championships in any of the main european countries can only lead to smaller and smaller grids at EHF events as potential newcomers are less able to participate. As the grids get smaller more races will be combined and there will be less opportunity to share craft - it is a downward spiral with only one inevitable result; the sport will die out on Continental Europe. I fervently hope that this will not come to pass, and believe that F3 should be included in the 2012 WHF event for precisely this reason, to add diversity, to increase the opportunities for participation and to help our sport to continue to grow.

Kevin

RussHudson
17-Jun-11, 02:03 PM
Just my 2p, but surely we should be aligned with world rules (or vice versa), especially for the 50/503/F3/FJ classes if those are the 'entry level' classes.
I struggle to comprehend when we have a world event every 2 years why we aren't all racing to their rules during the course of our season. Surely craft and formulae would evolve, racing would improve and possibly numbers would increase if we were all playing to the same rules with one interpretation ?????
As it stands the current euro F50 leader 'could' get an a** whooping by a super light craft built to last for 1 weekend at a worlds event, and not eligible to race at any other event ??????

Russ.

Jon Pert
17-Jun-11, 02:18 PM
http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/yeah.gif

Been saying it for years as I've never understood how a 'World' sport can have so many different rule books! The only reason it doesn't seem to happen is that one side or the other (or to be fairer both) would have to 'change'. As we all know 'change' in the hovercraft world is frowned upon.

foster2958
17-Jun-11, 03:51 PM
It's not that simple, unfortunately. WHF events are only held once every 2 years so the rules only get tried and tested once every 2 years and the WHF only meet to change the rules once every 2 years, so development is slow and tends to be a bit reactive to solitary events, hence the orange helmet rule because of one incident at the Swedish WHF event 4 years ago. Note that the WHF regulations haven't changed since 2009!

National race regulations are developed to suit the requirements of that nation - we race 7 or 8 times a year so our regs are thoroughtly tried and tested, and are reviewed every year to reflect the needs and wants of our drivers, and to reflect the feedback from our race events from participants, marshalls and other officials. Our F35 and F503 are particularly seen as "drivers" championships and have developed to suit our particular requirements - remember that UK started both these formulae and they are now recognised at world level. If we hadn't tried them out and showed that there was an appetite for these formulae the WHF regs would never have been changed to include them.

The EHF have seen fit to develop things in a different direction and dropped F3 completely, and their Juniors entry craft are F50. Each nation has a different approach to Health & Safety, and a different perception of risk. We have developed rules for our Juniors which are different - we want to encourage the use of craft which can be shared more widely, so our Juniors could use F3, F35 and F50 depending on their experience and abilities.

Other countries have other requirements, so it is only right that their regulations should reflect their needs and wants. The regulations across the world broadly fit the formula classifications that we all recognise. However if we all stuck with the WHF regs as the basis for everyone there would be no development, formulae would not evolve and craft would not develop - we would stagnate. It is only through regulations changes by the likes of HCGB and EHF which are regularly tried and tested in regular competitions that the WHF regs are ever likely to evolve or keep up with craft developments.

Kevin

Jon Pert
17-Jun-11, 04:08 PM
It's not that simple, unfortunately. WHF events are only held once every 2 years so the rules only get tried and tested once every 2 years and the WHF only meet to change the rules once every 2 years, so development is slow and tends to be a bit reactive to solitary events, hence the orange helmet rule because of one incident at the Swedish WHF event 4 years ago. Note that the WHF regulations haven't changed since 2009!

National race regulations are developed to suit the requirements of that nation - we race 7 or 8 times a year so our regs are thoroughtly tried and tested, and are reviewed every year to reflect the needs and wants of our drivers, and to reflect the feedback from our race events from participants, marshalls and other officials. Our F35 and F503 are particularly seen as "drivers" championships and have developed to suit our particular requirements - remember that UK started both these formulae and they are now recognised at world level. If we hadn't tried them out and showed that there was an appetite for these formulae the WHF regs would never have been changed to include them.

The EHF have seen fit to develop things in a different direction and dropped F3 completely, and their Juniors entry craft are F50. Each nation has a different approach to Health & Safety, and a different perception of risk. We have developed rules for our Juniors which are different - we want to encourage the use of craft which can be shared more widely, so our Juniors could use F3, F35 and F50 depending on their experience and abilities.

Other countries have other requirements, so it is only right that their regulations should reflect their needs and wants. The regulations across the world broadly fit the formula classifications that we all recognise. However if we all stuck with the WHF regs as the basis for everyone there would be no development, formulae would not evolve and craft would not develop - we would stagnate. It is only through regulations changes by the likes of HCGB and EHF which are regularly tried and tested in regular competitions that the WHF regs are ever likely to evolve or keep up with craft developments.

Kevin

I have to disagree with this Kevin (shocker!).

I don't see that regularity of events has anything to do with it. The World Cup is every 4 years, as is the Olympics. Footballers and athletes don't compete to different rules at national events compared with European or World events.

Why is the Hovercraft World so different? Because none of us want to compromise for the better good IMHO.

Jon Pert
17-Jun-11, 04:43 PM
Here's another quick thought.

Have the HCGB made a rod for it's own back by having too many formulas?

More formulas can only do one thing and that is make the grids smaller. We have many races over the course of a weekend but with small grids.

Going back to Tony B's suggestion of rating formulas by HP this would lower the number of formulas so making the grids bigger so making the spectacle better? It would also encourage development to be at the top of the tree, not stifle it IMHO.

We seem to be at a point now that we give out nearly as many trophies at a weekend as there are craft attending!

Just thinking out loud.

foster2958
17-Jun-11, 04:44 PM
Jon

In comparison with the sports you refer to, we are in our infantcy. Millions of game of football are played every year, and the sport has a long history. The rules of the game now bear no resemblance to those from when it first started. In the early days there were numerous variations of the game, from town to town let alone nation from nation. Sports evolve and as they get older and more mature the changes get smaller and the standards become common through a wider area. Consider also that from a common ancestor we now have football, american football, rugby union, rugby league and I'm sure many other forms of ball kicking team sports. Each of those developments must have been an almighty shock when they tried something different for the first time, but now are accepted in their own right. There are plenty of other sports, I am sure, which have more than one governing body, each of which has similar but slightly different rules and regulations.

Motor sports by their nature need to evolve faster because the technology changes faster. If hovercrafting is to survive and thrive we need to explore change, try new ideas and test them in a real environment. WHF is only once every 2 years and isn't the place for new ideas. National championships are where new ideas can be tested and developed, and when they are thrashed into shape can then move up to the international level if there is sufficient demand for them, but if we do not push the envelope even a little bit with new ideas we'll all be racing the same craft in 10 or 20 years time if we haven't died out altogether.

Kevin

foster2958
17-Jun-11, 05:25 PM
Have the HCGB made a rod for it's own back by having too many formulas?

More formulas can only do one thing and that is make the grids smaller. We have many races over the course of a weekend but with small grids.


We have more formulae but we also have more craft and more drivers attending when compared with EHF events, for example. Twice as many Novices and four-five times as many Juniors means that we have new members coming up and this means we must be doing something right. Our grid sizes are comparable or better than EHF events despite running more formulae.

Formulae based on HP are unlikely to ever take off as a valid alternative. It is impossible to measure in the field and so could not be policed or controlled. If you try to use thrust as a basis for measurement you have the problem of comparing twin engine craft with integrated ones, and the possibility that by tweaking the blades that you move from one formula to another if thrust is used as a measure of HP. There are too many other factors which would influence this - the efficiency of flow-straighteners, size of duct, type of blades and make and so on. Competitors need the reassurance that they are entering for a particular formula and can design and build accordingly. Engine capacity and single make formulae are currently the only reliable methods we can use to achieve this.

Kevin

broad5186
17-Jun-11, 07:00 PM
some interesting points - i still think HP/Thrust is a potential way forward, thrust/weight even fairer - perhaps we could do a confidential and anonymous test, test the current field (voluntarily) and see how craft/formulae/percieved Hp compare, results can be comparative rather than figures given out

the key here is Hp and thrust are related, there is a limit to how much thrust any Hp can deliver

i.e. top five F503 within 10% of each other or F3 5% higher than 503 or lift engined F2's producing 20% more than integrated

this could lead to a system which can easily differentiate between lift engined/shaftie and integrated craft

weight and thrust are easy to measure in the field, easier than any other system and random testing easily achievable

willa494
17-Jun-11, 07:21 PM
Just my view - i think there are too many classes at the moment.
The WHF should set the classes for the 2016 worlds at the 2012 worlds and then it is up to the EHF and HCGB if thay follow or not but at least you would have four years notice.

My view on the fomulas are:

1 Watercooled 250cc or 500cc aircooled

2 Above 500cc

3 Juniors as per class 1

4 novice as per rule 1

broad5186
17-Jun-11, 08:28 PM
i like the simplicity Lee - i'd still like to see F1 as an unlimited class

i think we should at least experiment combining 250 watercooled and 500 air cooled - everybody will drop their spanners and watch that race - let's ask drivers at hackets

what about a volunteer F3 and 503's one off race to see what happens - i'm up for it

tony

willa494
17-Jun-11, 09:14 PM
Tony Class 2 would be unlimited class

I would be up for the F3 / F503 race lets see if we can try it ?




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smallw1449
17-Jun-11, 09:15 PM
Thats what we already do in the open race isn't it?????

JEddy
17-Jun-11, 10:13 PM
Just my view - i think there are too many classes at the moment.
The WHF should set the classes for the 2016 worlds at the 2012 worlds and then it is up to the EHF and HCGB if thay follow or not but at least you would have four years notice.

My view on the fomulas are:

1 Watercooled 250cc or 500cc aircooled

2 Above 500cc

3 Juniors as per class 1

4 novice as per rule 1

The only thing i can see with this is that class 1 is combining the 2 largest formula that the HCGB have at the moment (possibly above 30 craft)... that could cause problems at some courses that have small grids e.g. rother valley

and where would the F35 craft slot into this aswell... since they would fit into class 2 on engine capacity but would be a lot slower than other craft on the course